Refine Search
Sort by
$2,295,950
260001618 MLS
Shovel ready legacy estate perched atop Faretto Lane in Holcomb Ranch, this 2.5-acre site bypasses the years of infrastructure prep required for a custom build. Fully optimized for a state-of-the-art residence, the site features a brand new 800-amp service, existing well, and 1500 gallon septic. With 10 acre-feet of water rights included ensuring a lush, private oasis, this is an opportunity for the buyer who values both their time and their privacy. Tucked at the end of a private drive for absolute discretion, the property affords sweeping, unobstructed views of the Reno skyline and the Virgina mountain range. Build without compromise in a community defined by rising values and architectural excellence. Your future on Faretto Lane is ready now.

2490 Faretto Ln, Reno

$1,630,000
3 Beds 3 Baths 260001355 MLS
Experience unparalleled 360° city and mountain views from every angle of this stunning single-story, custom-built South Reno residence. Perfectly situated on a premium 2.88-acre lot bordering US Forest Service land, this property offers exceptional privacy and a rare sense of serenity. Inside, you'll find vaulted ceilings, expansive picture windows, and an open-concept great room that fill the home with natural light. A complete modern remodel showcases refined finishes including hardwood and stone flooring, a sleek designer kitchen with striking granite slab counters and backsplash, stainless steel appliances, and exquisite tile work. The spacious three-car garage features an oversized door and workshop area. Step outside to enjoy sweeping city views from the covered rear deck or take in the mountain vistas from the inviting front porch—perfect for relaxing or entertaining. Other highlights include a luxurious primary suite with a jetted soaking tub and walk-in rain shower, a stucco exterior with a concrete tile roof, ample space for RVs, boats, and future outbuildings, and no HOA. This quiet yet convenient location is close to Thomas Creek Park, schools (Hunsberger Elementary, Herz Middle, Sage Ridge), shopping, dining, and only an 18-minute drive to Mt. Rose Ski Resort.

13120 Welcome Way, Reno

$149,900
260001207 MLS
Stop settling for cookie-cutter. This rare 3.09-acre Virginia City Highlands property gives you the space, privacy, and freedom that's getting harder and harder to find. 2 parcels have been combined to create one incredible opportunity with room to build your dream home, a shop, RV garage, horse setup, guest house, or simply enjoy wide-open Northern Nevada living. The hard work is already underway with a well installed and a graded building site in place. Gentle rolling terrain, mountain views, mature trees, and power nearby make this potentially one of the most buildable opportunities currently available in the Highlands. Located just 20-25 minutes from South Reno, you'll enjoy the peace and quiet of country living without feeling disconnected from everyday conveniences. As an added bonus, the combined parcels allow for the potential to build two homes, creating flexibility for multi-generational living, guest accommodations, or future investment opportunities. Horses are welcome. Come walk the property and see why so many people are trading crowded neighborhoods for space, views, and a lifestyle that feels like Nevada. Sale also includes APN: 003-161-59 (21730 Clemens).

21740 Clemens Rd, Reno

$399,900
260001149 MLS
Horses, Privacy, and Views! For the buyer who values space, privacy, and year-round adventure, this 40+-acre South Reno parcel is more than land—it's a lifestyle. Set high above the valley floor, this property offers some of the best views of Mt. Rose and Downtown Reno in the Virginia City Highlands area. Conveniently located only 12 minutes to South Reno's upscale shopping and dining, 25 minutes to downtown Reno's entertainment and nightlife or the trails and slopes of Mt. Rose-Ski Tahoe, and 45 to the shores of Lake Tahoe. A private dirt road takes you directly to a flat home site with sweeping, uninterrupted views of the Reno skyline and Mt. Rose where you can build your dream retreat with no HOA restrictions. Zoned for horses and surrounded by undeveloped land roamed by wild mustangs, this parcel is perfect for those who enjoy riding, hiking, trail running, and connecting deeply with the land. Rugged yet refined, it's the ideal backdrop for individuals who embrace the outdoors without sacrificing luxury. Whether you're a skier, mountain biker, hiker, or someone who simply finds freedom in wide-open space, this property delivers the perfect balance of high desert beauty, active living, and high-end potential. Located within one of Washoe County's best school districts, it's equally suited for growing families or those building a private retreat. Build the home that reflects your drive, your taste, and your lifestyle—where the horizon is wide open, and adventure begins at your doorstep.

000 Geiger Grade Rd Unit (016-751-03), Reno

$25,000
260000259 MLS
To access enter 39.3319111,-119.6214017 in google maps. Be prepared for off roading on dirt roads. Seller is seeking cash or outside financing. Seller will not finance a buyer. Discover wide-open space and true Nevada privacy on this 40-acre parcel in the Virginia City Highlands, just minutes from historic Virginia City. Situated in the mountains and surrounded by pinon pine trees, this property offers expansive views, quiet seclusion, and exceptional privacy. The land is well suited for off-grid living or a custom mountain retreat. With no HOA, excluding manufactured homes, you have the freedom to build and use the property to fit your vision. The natural terrain and elevation create a peaceful setting with scenic vistas in every direction. Enjoy the feel of remote mountain living while still being within driving distance of Virginia City, Reno, and Carson City. Whether you're looking for a private homesite, weekend escape, or long-term land investment, this property offers space, views, and flexibility in one of Northern Nevada's most sought-after high-desert mountain areas.

Apn 00427153, Reno

$699,999
250059108 MLS
Welcome to one of N. Nevada's most desirable and luxurious gated communities...Arrowcreek! Enjoy city and mountain views from this 1.18 acre custom home lot, one of the few view lots available that has both city and Mt. Rose views. Create your own custom oasis surrounded by other luxury homes. Arrowcreek Golf and Country Club memberships are sold separately. The Arrowcreek community has 24 hour security. You must be accompanied with a realtor to view this property if you don't live in the community. Please check in at the security gate upon arrival. Buyer(s) and buyers agent to conduct all due diligence on this listing. Information provided is deemed accurate. Approved Arrowcreek design committee architectural plans for this lot are available upon request. North and south views (attached plans in pictures) and East/West elevations are attached.

5728 Indigo Run Dr, Reno

$13,950,000
4 Beds 8 Baths 250058549 MLS
Set on an extraordinary 14 acres in the heart of Reno, the Pennington Mansion stands as one of Nevada's most iconic trophy estates. Properties of this scale simply do not exist this close to town, offering unmatched convenience paired with absolute seclusion, commanding elevation, and arguably the finest city views in all of Reno. Perched on a high plateau, the residence overlooks the entire skyline and valley, delivering cinematic, unobstructed vistas by day and a dazzling city-light show by night. A dramatic rotunda entry with soaring Venetian plaster ceilings sets the stage, opening to a grand living room anchored by a statement fireplace and floor-to-ceiling windows framing those signature views. The home spans 19,000+ square feet of refined living space, crafted with rare stones, exotic woods, and globally sourced materials. Its impeccable, ornate craftsmanship is designed to astonish even the most discerning buyer. Woven into every inch of the estate are coffered and barreled ceilings, ironclad windows wrapped in dramatic drapery and enhanced with custom automatic shades, gorgeous multi-step baseboards and moldings, solid-core grand entry doors finished with limestone trim, and grand-scale architectural columns. The west wing hosts a resort-caliber primary suite complete with a sitting room, one-of-a-kind custom onyx fireplace, private veranda, spa-style bath with multi-step finished cabinetry, his and her commodes, and a sumptuous walk-in closet with private laundry and fully enclosed custom wardrobes, delivering an elevated, boutique-inspired dressing retreat. A richly appointed executive office with warm burl wood box-trim paneling, custom cabinetry, built-in bookshelves, glass-front display cases, a fireplace, and patio access completes this wing. The east wing is designed for unparalleled entertaining. A circular sunken bar connects seamlessly to a stone-lined wine cellar and billiards room. The chef's kitchen features open truss ceilings, leathered stone countertops, a Wolf range, a large dining hearth, a butler's pantry, and a separate back kitchen, ideal for large gatherings or catering. A showstopping circular formal dining room offers a dramatic setting for intimate dinners or major social events. The home's lower level, accessed via a grand staircase or elevator, expands the lifestyle footprint with three generous ensuite bedrooms (each opening to poolside patios), a full home theater with snack bar, a large gym with salon, a craft room, and a secured gallery room for the curated display of historic arms, militaria, or other distinguished collections. Beyond the primary living areas, the estate offers over 7,000 sq ft of additional utility and storage space integrated into the daylight basement, an incredibly rare amenity for a property of this stature. Plentiful garage space totaling 2,600+ sq ft accommodates eight vehicles with ease, complemented by expansive motor-court parking for dozens more. Outdoors, the meticulously manicured grounds are introduced by a gated entrance that ushers you in along a newly resurfaced, estate-length driveway that winds gracefully toward the residence, framed by mature trees and lush, established landscaping. The setting unfolds into statues, a grand fountain, sprawling lawns, an in-ground pool and spa with built-in kitchen, and yet another monumental fireplace to complete the outdoor space. As a Nevada residence, ownership also provides highly attractive tax advantages, including no state income tax, no inheritance tax, and comparatively low property taxes, making this property not only a statement estate, but a strategic one. Rarely does a home combine iconic architecture, unmatched acreage, total privacy, and immediate city access like this. The Pennington Mansion is more than a residence; it is Reno's ultimate trophy property.

2490 Manzanita Ln, Reno

$129,000
250058134 MLS
Experience serene Nevada living on this beautiful parcel located off Palisades Road in South Reno & Virginia City Highlands (Storey County). This scenic property offers expansive views and a peaceful setting, highlighted by a stunning vantage point of Mt. Rose from the upper building pad. The property features two graded building pads — a larger lower pad and a smaller upper pad — providing multiple options for future development, storage, or recreational use. The land has a gentle slope with minimal rock, making it easier to access and build upon. A gravel driveway has already been installed for convenient entry to the site. Included with the sale is a 20-foot shipping container (purchased new in 2017) that has been painted and cleaned, ideal for secure storage or workspace while developing the property. Access to the parcel is from Palisades Road (via Cartwright Stovepipe Palisades); the property cannot be accessed directly from Bullfrog Road. This is an off-grid property with no well and no utilities currently in place, offering a fantastic opportunity for those seeking privacy, self-sufficiency, or a unique site for a future build. Cash purchase only.

3790 Bullfrog Rd, Reno

$2,299,000
6 Beds 6 Baths 250058030 MLS
This exceptional property offers breathtaking panoramic city and mountain views, and the rare opportunity to live in one of Reno's most sought-after gated communities. Step inside to discover an elegant and thoughtfully designed home featuring 6 bedrooms, 5.5 bathrooms, formal office, and 4954 sq ft of newly renovated space. With six spacious bedrooms, this home offers incredible flexibility to create additional home offices, private gym, or a vibrant playroom to suit your lifestyle Whether you're entertaining in the kitchen with underlit granite, enjoying a meal in the lee of the wind with radiant heat on the covered deck or savoring morning coffee with the sound of the fountain, every detail of this home is designed for comfort, luxury, and lifestyle. This residence has been fully remodeled since 2020, hitting all of the boxes, and sparing no expense. The gourmet kitchen is a chef's dream, outfitted with premium Thermador appliances including a gas range/oven and a second wall oven. Custom cabinetry and an expansive underlit granite counter that can seat 8 guests — ideal for nights with the family or more robust events that also bring in the wet bar, 1447 bottle secret/hidden wine cellar and formal dining room. Luxurious primary suite with heated floors, modern fireplace, coffee bar, steam shower, soaking tub, dual sinks and walk in fully custom closet. Enjoy your backyard well beyond the summer in comfort at the firepit or relaxing in the hot tub. Perfect ways to enjoy Northern Nevada's nights. And when the sun comes up, your solar and power storage batteries spring into action, sparing your pocketbook and protecting you in the event of power outages. Thoughtful attention was focused on the multiple relaxation and entertaining spaces. The west facing front entry provides a walled patio landing with water feature. The east facing elevated balcony provides a year-round retreat for enjoying coffee at sunrise and evening drinks by a fire pit. Conveniently accessed from both the kitchen and primary bedroom, this space provides city and mountain views with heat provided from the covered roof and a gas valve for connecting a barbeque or firepit. The backyard paver patio extends the options of the large downstairs entertainment room. Sit by the gas firepit or set up tables and chairs for large parties to flow in and out of the house. The lower level is an entertainer's dream, featuring an expansive game room or media lounge anchored by a sleek wet bar. Three additional bedrooms offer versatile living spaces, perfectly suited for a private office or home gym. Tucked behind a discreet Murphy door, a wine cellar offers a private and secure space for your collection, or with the keypad lock could function as a safe or panic room. Living in this beautiful gated community gives you access to Arrowcreek's exclusive amenities, including pools, hot tub, clubhouse, tennis courts, pickleball courts, fitness center, and you can explore 21 miles of pathways winding through the community, or enjoy gatherings at the BBQ and picnic areas set amidst open grassy lawns. Enjoy the peace and privacy of golf course living with the convenience of being just minutes from Reno's shopping, dining, and schools. Did we mention you are just a short drive from Lake Tahoe? World renowned skiing, boating, and outdoor recreation right at your fingertips. Or as the sellers prefer, mountain bike and trail run without touching a car. This home has everything you have been waiting for.

5640 Rue Saint Tropez St, Reno

$1,665,000
4 Beds 3 Baths 250057970 MLS
Elevated Sierra Living - New Roof - Fully Remodeled Kitchen - Turn Key With Each Detail Precisely Cared For Throughout This Residence Discover tranquility in this impeccably cared-for 4 bedroom, 3 bath Saddlehorn residence perfectly tucked at the end of a cul-de-sac and surrounded by a peaceful, park-like setting. From the moment you arrive, the long, oversized paver driveway and generous three-car garage set a tone of both elegance and ease. A charming wraparound front porch invites you to slow down, relax, and take in the serene natural surroundings. Inside, pride of ownership shines through every corner. The home is truly turn-key, with thoughtful updates tailored for comfort and modern living. The completely remodeled kitchen is the heart of the home, featuring premium finishes, custom cabinetry, and a design ideal for both everyday gathering and elevated entertaining. Sun-filled living spaces create a warm, welcoming ambiance throughout. Continue the experience outdoors on the wraparound back porch perfect for peaceful mornings or dining al fresco while overlooking mature landscaping and lush greenery. Just 5 minutes to the tree line leading up to Mt. Rose & the ski resort, you're moments away from stunning mountain scenery and miles of recreation. World-class skiing, hiking, and outdoor adventure awaits—along with easy access to Lake Tahoe, Virginia City, or Carson City, all approximately 25 minutes away. One of Saddlehorn's greatest luxuries is effortless access to its extensive trail network just steps from your property and leading straight into the Sierra landscape. Despite its serene privacy, this home offers unbeatable convenience close to shopping, dining, and the Reno Tahoe International Airport keeping you connected while still feeling wonderfully tucked away. A rare blend of comfort, style, and serenity provides for an ideal retreat that feels like home from the very first moment. Full Montreux membership may convey with this property, please inquire for details.

14240 Bandolier Ct, Reno

$1,695,000
3 Beds 3 Baths 250057924 MLS
Situated on a quiet cul-de-sac backing to greenbelt, within Reno's private, gated Lakeridge Shores community, this lovely, updated home promises a lifestyle. Begin your day with a breathtaking kayak ride on the community's Lake Stanley or join your friends for a lively Pickleball game on the courts overlooking the lake. Come home to your happy place to enjoy an open, great room floor plan with high ceilings and expansive windows that showcase the park-like setting. Set the table for a casual dinner with friends on your spacious and private backyard deck and look forward to a tranquil experience all will appreciate. This home has been beautifully updated with modern finishes and thoughtful design details throughout. The generous primary retreat on the main level features high ceilings, twin walk-in closets, an intimate home office, dual vanities, luxurious shower enclosure and garden tub. The walk-out basement serves as a perfect extension of the home, featuring two well-sized bedrooms, a full bath, and a welcoming recreation area complete with wet bar. With plenty of natural light and direct access to a cozy patio and large lawn area, it's ideal for entertaining or play.

2522 Lake Ridge Shores Cir, Reno

$480,000
250057668 MLS
WATER RIGHTS TO CONVEY - 40 acre feet. Reach out to Listing Agent for more info. Discover the freedom of wide-open Nevada living on this 46.54-acre parcel off Grass Valley Road in scenic Palomino Valley. Framed by sweeping mountain and desert views, this versatile property offers endless possibilities—ideal for a ranchette, custom home, recreational retreat, or future development. The land includes water rights and ample space for horses, agriculture, or off-grid living. It adjoins three additional parcels that are also for sale —APNs 077-340-04, 077-340-05, and 077-340-44— that are around 40+ac. and 60+ac. each, creating a rare opportunity to expand or assemble a large contiguous estate or farming operation, with significant future development potential. Enjoy privacy, natural beauty, and investment opportunity just a short drive from Reno, Sparks, and Pyramid Lake. Call listing agent for more details.

Unspecified, Reno

$499,000
250057662 MLS
WATER RIGHTS TO CONVEY - 40 acre feet. Reach out to Listing Agent for more info. Discover the freedom of wide-open Nevada living on this 46.73-acre parcel off Youngs Road in scenic Palomino Valley. Framed by sweeping mountain and desert views, this versatile property offers endless possibilities—ideal for a ranchette, custom home, recreational retreat, or future development. The land includes water rights and ample space for horses, agriculture, or off-grid living. It adjoins three additional parcels that are also for sale —APNs 077-340-04, 077-340-05, and 077-340-45— that are around 40+ac. and 60+ac. each, creating a rare opportunity to expand or assemble a large contiguous estate or farming operation, with significant future development potential. Enjoy privacy, natural beauty, and investment opportunity just a short drive from Reno, Sparks, and Pyramid Lake. Call listing agent for more details.

Youngs Rd, Reno

$549,000
250057643 MLS
WATER RIGHTS TO CONVEY - 60 acre feet. Reach out to Listing Agent for more info. Discover the freedom of wide-open Nevada living on this 63.57-acre parcel off Whiskey Springs Road in scenic Palomino Valley. Framed by sweeping mountain and desert views, this versatile property offers endless possibilities—ideal for a small farming/ranching operation, custom home, recreational retreat, or future development. The land includes water rights and ample space for horses, agriculture, or off-grid living. It adjoins three additional parcels that are also for sale —APNs 077-340-05, 077-340-44, and 077-340-45— that are around 40+ac. and 60+ac. each, creating a rare opportunity to expand or assemble a large contiguous estate or farming operation, with significant future development potential. Enjoy privacy, natural beauty, and investment opportunity just a short drive from Reno, Sparks, and Pyramid Lake. Call listing agent for more details.

Whiskey Springs Rd Unit A, Reno

$475,000
3 Beds 2 Baths 250056813 MLS
A 2nd home right in the back yard! This spacious North Valleys property is brimming with opportunity. Situated on a generous 1.05 acre lot, this home offers room to spread out and endless possibilities for customization or investment. In addition to the main residence, the property includes a two-story outbuilding—each level is approximately 1,150 square feet—ideal for conversion into a rental unit, workshop, home office, or creative studio. That's 2,300 extra square foot for whatever your imagination comes up with. This is a rare chance to add value and versatility to an already spacious property. Enjoy wide-open views, plenty of parking...including plenty of room for RV parking with a large gate that opens to the back yard. Outdoor recreation is nearby along with schools and shopping while maintaining a peaceful, country-like setting just minutes from city conveniences. Whether you're looking for an income-producing investment or space to make your own, this home delivers exceptional potential in one of Reno's fastest-growing areas.

11890 Chesapeake Dr, Reno

$2,400,000
3 Beds 3 Baths 250055844 MLS
FIRST RELEASE - Introducing Après at Montreux! Brand-new "build-to-suit" homesites available now! Inspired by the warmth and camaraderie of après-ski, Après at Montreux offers a rare chance to own in this storied community's last enclave. This offering is for the new Après Plan A, a desirable single-story floor plan featuring 3 Bedrooms, 3 Full Baths, Study/Den, Morning Room, Laundry Room, and 3-car Garage. Plenty of flexibility to select your own quality interior finishes to completely customize your dream home. Located in prestigious Montreux Golf & Country Club, this 24/7 manned-gated luxury community surrounds an 18-hole, Jack Nicklaus Signature Championship Course (Par 72), with world-class Clubhouse amenities. This future Après home at 20585 Latour Way is near miles of nature trails along Galena Creek, and is just 20 minutes to both the Mt. Rose Ski Resort and Reno-Tahoe International Airport, and a scenic 30-minute drive to the shores of beautiful Lake Tahoe. Be the first in Montreux's final chapter - come tour the new Après community today! The photos shown are of a professionally decorated and furnished model home of the two-story Plan A2 option, which could also be accommodated on this homesite. The advertised property is a to-be-built home and may feature different finishes and options. Please contact the Listing Agent(s) for specific details on the included features and pricing options on both plans. Taxes to be assessed when home is complete.

20585 Latour Way, Reno

$2,875,000
4 Beds 5 Baths 250055805 MLS
FIRST RELEASE - Introducing Après at Montreux! Brand-new "build-to-suit" homesites available now! Inspired by the warmth and camaraderie of après-ski, Après at Montreux offers a rare chance to own in this storied community's last enclave. This offering is for the new Après Plan B2, a generous floor plan featuring 4 Bedrooms, 4.5 Baths, a dedicated Office, functional Flex Space, and an open and airy Loft. Plenty of flexibility to select your own quality interior finishes to completely customize your dream home. Located in prestigious Montreux Golf & Country Club, this 24/7 manned-gated luxury community surrounds an 18-hole, Jack Nicklaus Signature Championship Course (Par 72), with world-class Clubhouse amenities. This future Après home at 20605 Latour Way is near miles of nature trails along Galena Creek, and is just 20 minutes to both the Mt. Rose Ski Resort and Reno-Tahoe International Airport, and a scenic 30-minute drive to the shores of beautiful Lake Tahoe. Be the first in Montreux's final chapter - come tour the new Après community today! The photos shown are of a previously sold professionally decorated and furnished home of the same floor plan. The advertised property is a to-be-built home (not yet built) and may feature different finishes and options. Please contact the Listing Agent(s) for specific details on the included features and upgrade options or visit the ApresMontreux.com website for additional details.

20605 Latour Way, Reno

$284,900
250054714 MLS
Discover the perfect canvas for your dream home in the highly sought-after gated community of St. James Village. This beautiful corner lot features a generous building envelope, mostly cleared of trees, making it easy to envision your ideal residence.Enjoy quick and easy access to outdoor adventures at Mt. Rose and Lake Tahoe, as well as the rear entrance to Washoe Valley and US 395, placing you just moments away from a variety of restaurants, shopping, and essential amenities. Bask in the breathtaking views of Mt. Rose, Slide Mountain, and the picturesque eastern slope mountains and valley below. This lot presents a unique opportunity to create your masterpiece in a prime location. Imagine stepping out of your front door and immediately accessing some of the best walking, hiking, and mountain biking trails in the area. This lot not only offers a serene setting but also provides an outdoor enthusiast's paradise right at your fingertips. Whether you prefer a leisurely stroll or an exhilarating ride through breathtaking landscapes, you'll find endless opportunities for adventure just moments from your future home. Embrace the active lifestyle you've always wanted in this ideal location!Don't let this chance slip away!

605 Sand Cherry Ct, Reno

$379,000
250054460 MLS
Set on 1.5 private acres in the gated St. James Village community, this is a rare opportunity to build an extraordinary mountain retreat in one of the area's most coveted settings. Architectural plans for the homesite are already approved and available for an additional fee, designed by an award-winning architect whose vision embraces a harmonious connection with the natural surroundings. A "Japandi"-inspired home that captures calm, balance, and mindful living, where every line and every detail is intentional, blending seamlessly into a landscape framed by pines and mountain views. The thoughtfully developed plot plan optimizes both privacy and vistas, ensuring nature is not just a backdrop but an integral part of daily life. The design calls for natural materials such as wood, stone, and glass that echo the tones and textures of the surrounding landscape, creating a home that feels rooted in its environment. Located in gated St. James Village, this property offers more than a beautiful homesite. It's a lifestyle. Stroll meandering trails beneath the pines, enjoy the quiet rhythm of the seasons, and take comfort in the security and serenity of the neighborhood. When adventure calls, Lake Tahoe is just a short drive away, along with world-class skiing, mountain biking, and hiking. This is more than a home in the making. It's an opportunity to live within architecture that reflects the land it stands on, in a community where nature and design meet in perfect balance.

203 S Argyle Ct, Reno

broker reciprocity logo

© 2017 Northern Nevada Regional MLS, Inc. All Rights Reserved
Data last updated on 06/28/2017.

The data relating to real estate for sale on this web site comes in part from the Broker Reciprocity Program of the Northern Nevada Regional MLS. Real estate listings held by brokerage firms other than owner of this page are marked with the Broker Reciprocity logo and detailed information about them includes the name of the listing brokers.

Information deemed reliable but not guaranteed